[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the Wealth Builders podcast. I'm Billy Epperhart, and on this show, you're going to hear from industry leaders in business, real estate and investing. Our wealth builder coaches and myself are excited to teach you how to make sense of making money for making a difference. Okay, let's get started.
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Hello. Welcome to this week's Wealth Builders podcast. I'm so grateful that you joined us. And today I have with me the one and only Bill Bronchek. Bill, do you want to greet everybody today?
[00:00:44] Speaker C: Hello, everybody, and happy new year. Out with the old, in with the new year, right? Throw out the old, open up the new one.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: That's so good, Bill. And this topic that we're talking about today is so interesting. I was just mentioning to Bill that boy, this is his sweet spot. This podcast is titled Faith and Real Estate investing, how to trust God and take risks. And here we go. We're just hanging out. This is election year. There's a lot of things happening.
But you know what? Our faith, our trust is in God, and we're seeing a lot of opportunity. This is a great year for opportunities in real estate. And so, Bill, we're really excited to get some information and knowledge from you. So what do you think about this topic and looking at 2024?
[00:01:40] Speaker C: I think it's great. The thing that it's so applicable here is that the market is so uncertain.
Everybody's all over the map of what's going to happen, all the so called experts.
Personally, I don't think it's going to be that much different from the previous year because it's an election year and the incumbent, whoever it may be, is always going to try to prop up the economy, make it look better because people vote their wallets. Nonetheless, people have fear. Like, should I wait? Should I do this now? Should I wait for interest rates? Should I wait for prices to drop? Should I wait for the stars to all align? Should I wait till after my divorce is finished? Should I wait till after I'm done with school?
People have every excuse in the book to put something off, and it's usually based on fear.
[00:02:24] Speaker B: That is a really good point. The what ifs what the news is saying. And one of the teachings you have is about, I think, the ten spies, something like that. Coming back with what kind of a report?
And really, you're an attorney. Our audience knows that. They know you really well.
But how many years, Bill, have you been in real estate investing?
[00:02:49] Speaker C: 32.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: So you've seen some cycles?
[00:02:53] Speaker C: I've seen some cycles. I've been a real estate attorney for 34 years.
And I also invest in real estate. And I write books on real estate. I teach it. I mentor people in real estate. I invest myself. I used to run a huge real estate investment association in Colorado called the Colorado association of Real Estate Investors. We had almost 5000 members at the peak 2008, when the market was crazy, we used to get 400 people at our meetings monthly. So I've met so many investors. Come and go, experience.
It's sort of a revolving door for a lot of tire kickers. And then, of course, when the market crashed, the club went from 400 in a meeting to 80.
Why? Because people follow the herd. They follow the herd, right.
Of course, biblically, they say, you want to follow the shepherd, but when it comes to investing, not so much following the herd, because the herd tends to run when things are great and then run away when things are bad, when you should be doing the opposite.
[00:03:57] Speaker B: Yeah, that's true. And historically, just studying things out. The Great Depression, of course, seemed like the worst time that anybody could buy. I'm still kicking myself for back in 2008 to 2010, I didn't have the.
[00:04:10] Speaker C: Information that I have today between 2009 and eleven. And it was tough. I mean, frankly, I got great bargains. I bought properties for as cheap as 60, 65,000.
[00:04:21] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:04:21] Speaker C: They're now worth 400.
[00:04:23] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:04:24] Speaker C: But it was tough. I mean, it was tough to get a loan.
The interest rates weren't that good back then. We were still in the high sevens. And I still have, like five years left on a couple of loans that are like, in the sevens.
And they couldn't rent for break even. The rental market wasn't that good either. But by 2013, it all turned around, and then by 2020, it was crazy.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And as we go into 2024, I know there's a lot of uncertainty, but based on your experience, Bill, how do you kind of call this year? What are you expecting?
[00:05:01] Speaker C: Well, as I said, it's an election year. Interest rates are starting to creep down a little bit because the Fed is starting to indicate they're going to cut. And I think there'll be pressure from the White House to cut because, again, that makes the economy look better. And when the economy looks better, the incumbent has a better chance of winning. And there's a matter of whether it's Republican or Democrat or who it is. That's been the strategy for 60 years. But you try to prop up the economy to make it look better than it is. All of a sudden you notice gas prices are starting to drop. I had heard that coincidentally, right coincidentally. So I don't think it'll be drastically different from last year. The same factors exist. A lot of supply. Excuse me, no supply, which means more buyers than sellers.
And a lot of sellers have pulled out of the market because they couldn't get their price. And when interest rates went up, there were fewer buyers and they didn't want to drop it anymore. So they're pulling it off the market with 3% loans and just renting it out or living in it, and then waiting to see what happens.
And that's going to continue this year because I think people are going to wait till the last of the election to see what happens. Unless interest rates drop dramatically in the mortgage market, and then more buyers come in, sellers go, okay, now it's time to sell this summer. But I don't see interest rates dropping a four again in this year. Maybe they'll drop another half a point. That's it.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So as you look at this year from an investor standpoint, do you feel there's going to be opportunities, and if so, how should we be approaching it to just make sure that we're finding the right opportunities and kind of setting aside that fear that we talked about for people to have confidence in moving forward even during these times.
[00:06:45] Speaker C: Right. Well, I'm quoting my pastor from last Sunday. I wrote it down. He said something great. He says that if you have fear, you don't understand the anointing that God has on you. Wow, I thought that was a really great quote.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: That powerful.
[00:07:00] Speaker C: It's worth repeating that if you feel fear, people will say this all the time, that when you give into fear and anxiety and worry, you are worshipping the enemy. That's his tools. So when you give into fear, anxiety, and worrying and fretting, you are basically your devil worshipping. Let's put it frankly. When you understand God's anointing on you and favor on you, there's no reason to have fear. And that would be irrelevant to what the market is. There's always opportunities in every market. I've been investing for a long time. I've been in it through three cycles now. I've invested in probably 15 different cities over the, you know, cold across the country. And so I've seen a lot. And the more things change, the more they kind of stay the same. But now it's getting a little murky because we're in sort of uncharted territory, having high inflation we haven't seen since the Carter administration, and interest rates higher than they've been in probably 2025 years and then this really low supply of houses, which is keeping the market from collapsing basically because it's all about supply and demand. People have to realize when you watch on tv or you listen to a podcast about the housing market, that means the whole country, and it really is irrelevant what's going on in the whole country, because all you really need to know is what's going on in the neighborhoods you're investing that part of the city. Supply versus demand. Are there more buyers? Are there more sellers? So when interest rates go up nationally, that brings down demand, but supply is local.
So how many houses are for sale or rent in this particular area relative to the number of buyers or renters? And that's really all you have to know.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: So when looking and analyzing a market, again, just staying with this theme of kind of faith and trust right in God first, but also taking that knowledge and applying it, how should people in this year, in the following months, start to look for a market that is viable for investing or which type of market? Describe the market that you would have a green light to go into and start buying right now.
[00:09:19] Speaker C: I've made money in all markets.
For me, it's like dollar cost averaging. In the stock market. That concept means you just keep buying whether it's going up or down, because in the long run it goes up. Same thing with real estate.
If you're in your 70s, that's a little different. You don't have enough time, as much time to wait. But if you're under 50 and 20 years from now, this is all going to be an irrelevant discussion because things go up and down, but they always go up in the long run.
[00:09:46] Speaker B: Yeah, so some of it is knowing the trends and just investing. Like we were just talking about a property where it was a potential, but after you started analyzing it, the ratios were off. So just like staying tight to the things that we teach at wealth builders and you're a part of wealth builders with ideally a 1%, the cash on cash return, things like that. And then how much opportunity is out there right now for people that maybe want to sell their home but they're not going the real estate route? Are there opportunities there and how do we find them?
[00:10:24] Speaker C: Yeah, you mean the real estate broker route? Yeah, there's lots of opportunities. The difference between looking at the real estate quote market, depending on how you define it, and investing in, let's say, gold or commodities or big stocks in the stock market is number one. You have control to some extent of the value of your property because after you buy it, you can fix it up, you can add an addition, you can rezone it, you can do things to make it more valuable. You can't do that. When you buy Google stock, you just buy and hope, right? And also you can't buy it at a discount. So if you go to Google stock is trading in x dollars, you can't knock on someone's door and say, hey, I heard you're in a divorce. You want to sell me your Google stock cheap. You can't do that. In the real estate market, you can do that whether it's up, down, are sideways. There's always people with problems, whether it be divorce or illness or loss of a job or whatever, running out of money. I can't fix it up, can't keep up the property. There's so many foreclosures behind in taxes. So really what I look at, real estate is a problem solving business. It's problem solving business, people business. So what you're looking for is people with problems help them solve a problem and you make money and you help them out. And that's really my formula I've always operated under as a real estate business person is there's two requirements for every deal. Number one, I have to leave the seller in a better place than I found them. And number two, I got to make money. So if you're just helping them, well, then that's a charity. That's okay if that's what you want to do.
And if you just make money, you don't help people, then you're not doing God's work.
So I want to feel like I've had people literally hug me crying for buying their house at a huge discount.
[00:12:14] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:12:15] Speaker C: Because it was a problem to them. They didn't care about how much money they got. They just wanted the problem to go away.
So in their mind, they couldn't deal with the problem. And I'm helping them solve that problem and fixing their life to some extent. And it's win win, even though I'm getting a super deal, it's win win because they don't always want just money. They want to problem solve.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: That is such great perspective, Bill. And that's a lot of insight into why and how you've been so successful in real estate. Plus, it lines up with our biblical values. We want to be a blessing, but there's nothing wrong with us making money as well. And I'd love to go down in this topic for a moment because as much as we hear, we know that God wants us to prosper. There are still so many christians out there that have this idea that there is something wrong with prospering. And I know you've got jewish roots. You have a very good understanding. So can you just share with us on that a little bit?
[00:13:19] Speaker C: I got a double blessing. I have the blood of Jesus, but I also have the covenant between God and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob that he promised he would give them the promised land, the land of milk and honey, and he would prosper, them and all their descendants. So when I pray, I often say, God, I'm calling on that covenant that you made with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, because I'm a jew in the bloodline, so I get the benefit of that. And there's nothing wrong with that. If you look at. I mean, there's a lot of talk today about income inequality, right? So tax the rich. They're evil, and it's not right that someone should be worth $300 billion. And if you look at Solomon, the richest man that ever lived, there were still poor people and slaves in Israel at that point. So God doesn't have a problem with income inequality.
He will bless you to the extent that he wants to bless. And obviously, it's not so much related to how good of a person you are, but whether he has a certain anointing or gifting that he wants to give.
David. I was just reading chronicles, first chronicles. The first half is all the names we're trying to pronounce, all them. And then it ends with the story David passing on the torch to Solomon. And I did some math on this. Do you know how much money they got from the people from tithes to build that first temple, Solomon's temple?
[00:14:43] Speaker B: How much?
[00:14:44] Speaker C: Equivalent of like $250,000,000 plus in gold, silver, and jewels. Then David gave over 100 million of his own personal stash into it. That was his personal offering, and God loved that. Of course, there's no better offering than saying, I love you, God. I love your house that we're going to build for you. And giving $100 million of your own personal money to contribute $350,000,000 to a temple that had no seats in it for the congregation.
Only the levitical priest could go in and pray. The general public wasn't allowed in.
So that's a lot of money when you think about it. And some people like, well, church is always asking for too much money, blah, blah, blah, blah. You hear a lot of non Christians, even some Christians say that, especially when you see the big churches, the fancy ones, and the fanciest house of God that was ever built was Solomon's temple, $350,000,000 worth. And God loved it.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: Wow. That is great perspective. And in one of the teachings that you share, you've shared in the past conferences and things is about the ten spies. And we talk to a lot of people on an ongoing basis that they want to get into real estate. They actually start to learn about how to get into real estate, but they never get in the game. So either they never find the right deal, which, know, I understand that, but I think a lot of the time, bill, people are just like, they're not confident to take that first step. So what would you share with people that are thinking that, that just need the confidence to get in the game?
[00:16:28] Speaker C: Yeah, well, first of all, a lot of people say, well, I'm going to do this deal, even though it's not that great, just to get some experience. Don't do that.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: You'll have experience.
[00:16:36] Speaker C: All right, but it's not going to be a good one. Be patient. Be patient. The perfect deal. And first of all, it doesn't have to be a perfect deal. You can do base hits and get very rich, and once in a while hit a home run. Base is loaded. That doesn't happen every day of the week. But also, just be patient. The right deal will come along. So what happens is people go to a seminar, read a book, watch videos, or see a tv show, and then they go out, spend two or three weeks looking for a super deal, and they can't find when they give up.
Be patient. Be patient. I mean, it may take three months, it may take them one month, it may take six months, but eventually, I mean, look, when God promised that Sarah was going to have a baby to Abraham, look what happened. It was a long time, and they got impatient. What did they do? They got impatient and they decided that Abraham was going to have a baby with Hagar, which to this day he's probably regretting.
[00:17:30] Speaker B: Exactly. We don't watch. Right.
[00:17:33] Speaker C: Yeah, I forgot about that because I watched a movie on the story of Abraham and was interesting. I forgot I had to go back and read it, that it was her idea to have the baby with the slave woman. And then after he did it, she kind of fell in love with Abraham. And Sarah got very upset and said, why did you do that? And he's like, you told me to do that. Well, I was upset. You took advantage of like, this sounds like modern day marriage.
But the point I was going to make is that they got impatient. They didn't wait for God's blessing. And they got impatient, decided to take matters into their own hands, using their carnal mind and using their flesh, instead of waiting on God's promise.
Who knows? Just have faith, keep working at it, keep doing it, and eventually deals will come along. Once you get that first deal, you get the confidence. Then it becomes much easier. But also, it's a thought process. You got to think of it more than just, I got to make money. For me to support my family, especially as a man, that's a pressure. And look at it more of as a know what it is down the line. So, like, when David gathered all that money and all that gold and he wanted to build the temple, and God said, no, you're not going to do it. Solomon's going to do it, because you spilled too much blood to get that money.
So we wanted someone fresh, like Solomon, who wasn't involved in war. Also, if you remember, he bought Mount Moriah, where they built the temple.
And he didn't know when he bought it, it was for that legacy.
He was just giving an offering. And if you remember, I don't remember the guy's name who gave it to him starts with an end, like Naraya or something. Who gave it? He said, I'll give it to you. And he says, no, I'm not giving it to you. I'm going to buy it from you. Because this is an offering to God.
He didn't know at that time it was going to be a legacy for his son and his son's sons and his families for generations. So if you look at real estate as a generational legacy, takes the pressure off a little more.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really good. And I think, too, the scriptural connection between real estate, it's important to, you know, now we've got China coming in, buying up property, we've got the big blackrocks coming in and buying up property. It just seems like this is a time that God is calling his people right, to rise up and purchase real estate. Can you talk a little bit about that God and real estate connection just to give us some insight? It might actually encourage people to see the importance of investing in real estate from a spiritual perspective.
[00:20:13] Speaker C: Sure. There's a spiritual voice or spiritual blessing and spiritual currency in land, in property, and it's much more than the Old Testament, where. What was it that God promised? He said, well, I'm going to multiply you, like all the stars, your generations. But he kept promising over and over the promised land, and even though they were against all ods, they managed to go in there and do. And if you look at David, David was really the first, he was the second king, but he was the first big leader in Israel to really unite everybody, because we had Israel and Judah and all these little subfiedoms. And so every time David went in to conquer an area and fight a war, he would ask God, should I do this? And God would say, yes, go take them over. And when he took them over, he got the land. He got the spoils of war, too. But the land was the significance. It was building Israel as one big country, which is if you look back to what he had then and what Israel is now, it's almost identical. It's almost identical. The actual borders are almost identical. And so the lesson from that is when you're investing, seek God's counsel. You seek experts counsel, too, obviously, real estate agents and attorneys and things like that. But ultimately, you have to look to God for the lead on should I buy this land or should I do this?
But you don't want to go to the point where you get into paralysis of analysis, like, well, God's not speaking to me. I don't know what to do. Should I make an offer? And then I make an offer, I'm going to do nothing. Don't go crazy.
[00:21:58] Speaker B: Wow, that's so helpful, Bill. And just that, the importance of real estate and looking at this year, and let's just talk, we were visiting a little bit about fear and anxiety, and I think the enemy is really trying to bring that on people, especially christians, to get people to stop, to get people to look at what could go wrong instead of what could go right. So what are some things that you would do for advice for people that are dealing with that fear, with that anxiety? How do we deal with that during this time, during this economy and just all that's going on in the world?
[00:22:40] Speaker C: Right? Well, there's risk in everything. Every business has risk. And the question is, how do we reduce that risk? How do we minimize that risk?
[00:22:49] Speaker B: Good.
[00:22:50] Speaker C: You get educated, you talk to experts, you do your due diligence, but ultimately, at the end, you're taking a leap of faith because things can go wrong. But if you focus on the wrong and all the things go wrong, you'll never do the right, which is to do the best you can, have faith, pray about it, and then take action and go ahead and do it. And it's like we mentioned earlier about the story of the twelve spies when they sent the one from each of the tribes of Israel to go into Canaan and see if they were going to take it over the first time. And ten of the twelve spies came back and said, they're giants, we're just grasshoppers. They'll murder us. And of course there was two left, Joshua and Caleb, who said, let's take it. God's with us. I don't care how big they are, God's bigger than them. And of course everybody threw rocks at them. That's why they spent 40 years in the desert. But the question is, you could see the economy in the real estate market as like giants such as high interest rates and weird economy and inflation and blah, blah, blah. Or you could see the opportunity. The land of milk and honey. It depends what you're going to focus your mind on and that's what it's about.
You're going to have a little bit of fear, but you have to take that leap of faith at one point after you've done all your due diligence. You have to do it because people who take risks generally are successful in this world, even though they have failed many times.
Colonel Sanders, the old story, he didn't get started till he was like almost 70. And he's in his white crumbled suit going around from restaurant to restaurant to restaurant to sell his chicken recipe. And he failed like 1000 times. Everyone said, we don't need a chicken recipe.
It's going to happen. Sometimes you will make mistakes, sometimes you will fail. That's part of the process. But more often than not, when you look back on your life, you're going to say, I wish I should have instead of saying, I wish I didn't.
[00:24:56] Speaker B: Yeah, that's for sure. How many times do people have a conversation? We just had it at our family vacation. Like, why did we start buying real estate ten years ago?
Well, we just didn't have the knowledge that we have today. But the next best time to start is today, right?
[00:25:16] Speaker C: That's right. Like I said, in any economy, up, down or sideways, with the real estate market, there's always people with problems. Yeah, there's always little niches in there that you can make money. Now, the strategies may be different from market to market. So if you're in a particular, let's say you live in California, everybody knows it's impossible to buy an $800,000 1500 square foot ranch and make money on that. You just can't break even no 1% there. You're not going to get 7500 a month in rent in that house. However, you might get huge appreciation in living in California. Over the years, where you're losing money every year and making it back triple in appreciation.
Sort of like using the analogy of job, right?
[00:25:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:59] Speaker C: Suffered the pain, but he was paid back seven times. Well, that's the way it is in California real estate and markets like that, where you have very high prices and the rents are just not there. Well, if you buy at the right time, low and sell high, you'll make it back seven times.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: In the, you know, in the coaching program with wealth builders, we really work with individuals because that strategy isn't going to work for someone that is just completely reliant upon cash flow, but someone that needs some deductions, who's got strong w two income, where they're trying to mitigate the amount of taxes they're paying, that could be a great strategy.
[00:26:39] Speaker C: Not everybody. In the beginning, we talked about fear and what you should do, what you should buy. It really depends all on what you're trying to accomplish with real estate.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: So true.
[00:26:49] Speaker C: It's not about the real estate, it's about what you're trying to accomplish. It's what you want, your lifestyle, what kind of legacy you want to leave to your family.
So some people, like I said, they're good earners. They don't need more income, but they'd like to have something that grows, like an IRA in the future.
For me, it was one property that I bought many years ago when my kids were young and when my daughter went to college, I refinanced one property and paid for four years of college.
529 plan, you could imagine. And guess who's paying back the student loan?
The tenants.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: The tenants. Right.
[00:27:26] Speaker C: Not her. So a 529 plan is okay, too. You can put money away for that, but there's nothing better than long term appreciation. And then if the timing is right and the interest rates are right, and you can refinance your property and get some equity out, and you could still cash flow, it works.
[00:27:42] Speaker B: Wow, Bill, that is so great. And I know many of you have had the opportunity to listen to Bill before. He's at all of our events, and I'm not sure exactly when this is airing, but we do have the wealth builders conference that's coming up February 16 to the 18th. Bill is doing a main session. He's doing workshops. He'll be part of the vip panel. I mean, you don't want to miss it. Also. This just ties in so well to something that Billy talks about, and we always mention this at the events, and he teaches on it is one of the ways to overcome fear or intimidation of real estate or help you to get going is to get knowledge. We've got knowledge, gain knowledge, and then we gain understanding. And then wisdom comes. Or we actually know how to apply the wisdom, because we have gotten knowledge and understanding. And I've personally found that the more I learn, the more I get in the atmosphere of people like yourself, Bill, you and your amazing wife Jenny, the other coaches, the wealth builders family, it builds up my confidence, but I'm also getting an understanding and knowledge about the market that gives confidence. Like, okay, I know what I'm getting into. I know what to look for.
And so I would just encourage any of you that are not yet signed up to attend that event, please do so go to forward slash events. Also, we have got a workshop, a real estate workshop that is coming up in.
You know, Bill is an amazing attorney. We all use him for our real estate. And so, Bill, if someone has some real estate needs, they need some legal work done.
How can they get a hold of you?
[00:29:32] Speaker C: Best would be my website for my law firm, which is bronchicklaw, my last name, law, or my email is Bill at Bronchicklaw. Easy to find.
[00:29:45] Speaker B: Great. I just want to tell you, Bill is amazing. He's very responsive, and we think he is the best real estate attorney that you can find, which is why we have him at all of our events. Right. Thank you.
[00:29:58] Speaker C: I appreciate that. It's important in terms of coming to the conference or the workshop and being around people who have credentials and expertise, because a lot of people watch YouTube or the different social media stuff, and someone seems like an. Yesterday it was funny, I was watching this thing about some health issue, and the guy was rambling on about, well, if you google this, you'll get WebMD and then the National Institute of Health, and they all say the same thing, and the FDA, but they're all in cahoots to make money. And I'm like, that's true. That's kind of true. And then he started talking about it. What's this guy's credentials? And I clicked on it. He's a chiropractor.
I'm like talking about blood sugar or something like, he's a chiropractor.
But then you realize, where is this coming?
[00:30:45] Speaker B: You know, that's a good point, Bill, because all of us are in the game. We're all real estate investors. We actually each have a little bit of our own area of expertise that we combine together. And I think most importantly, the thing about wealth builders is that under Billy and you know, our hearts are to help people and Billy and Becky are at the top of that list. That's why they're doing this. And it's all on a biblical.
So, you know, none of us are just depending on everything to do with wealth builders to live on. We actually all have plenty to do, but we believe so much in this and helping others and that's just really.
[00:31:29] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. And especially Billy and Becky that they put this on and especially for people who to watch online because if you're not there live, you're not going to believe the audiovisual crew that is there business. And I'm like, oh my goodness, this must be costing a fortune.
[00:31:49] Speaker B: It kind of does.
[00:31:51] Speaker C: It's not like wealth Builders conference is a big money maker.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:31:58] Speaker C: Because I've done seminars. I know what it costs to put on something at a big hotel. And especially the class, they do a first class and full video crew. And you got those beautiful banners behind you and screens and it's top notch.
[00:32:14] Speaker B: It is. And we want you to be a part of it. And so again, you can go to wealthbuilders.org events. We would love to see you there and we love to spend time with all of you and visit with as many of you as possible. So Bill, I just want to thank you again for being part of the wealth builders coaching team, the wealth Builders family and for being on this podcast. And I want to thank all of you for tuning in each and every week. We love and appreciate you. God bless you and make it a great rest of the day.
[00:32:47] Speaker C: Thank you. God bless everyone.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: Thanks for listening to the Wealth Builders podcast. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please rate and review the show. If you want to learn more about who we are, visit our
[email protected] and check us out on Facebook. We'll see you next time.
